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The Charlotte Lucas question...
Jun. 21st, 2007 10:40 pmFor sartorias, but a bit later than planned, due to an unexpected after-hours visit to the doctor (in the hospital, but only because this group use the Out-Patient facilities when not in hospital use). With Older Daughter, who got an intense pain in her side, which 2 ibuprofen and 2 paracetamol tablets only dimmed down for about 20 minutes, leaving her nauseated and white with pain. Not a kidney stone or infection, but the doc earned serious disapproval [at this point, while I was trying to correct the misspelling of 'disapproval' - I'm really tired! - stupid Xjournal went and posted...] by saying that she had 'a little pain in her tummy'. As I said to her, it's a pity such condescending jerkery is only encountered when you feel like death, as he should have been seriously reprimanded for saying that to an intelligent 20 year-old.
Anyway, the discussion at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
steepholm's mother's somehow got to Charlotte's decision to marry Mr Collins, and he and his mother both said she was just pragmatic and not hopeful of better. I agreed with that, and that her choices were much more limited than those of Jane or Elizabeth, but felt that though her decision was treated sympathetically it was nonetheless meant to be seen as morally inadequate. I quoted too! And then found and read out the passages I'd remembered (fairly accurately, on this occasion, at least*). Steepholm's mother said the voice of Elizabeth couldn't be equated with that of the narrator/Jane Austen, which is also correct, of course. Rebuttal number whatever though, is that Elizabeth is wrong in her judgments, but is not actually morally incorrect: if Darcy had done any of the things she mistakenly believed him to have done, then he would have been a bad, bad man indeed. The snobbery of Bingley's sisters is wrong. And when the author uses her favourite free indirect speech to show Elizabeth, feeling betrayed by Charlotte, turning even more to Jane , who is never anything but good, the reader is to see that judgment to be correct. Of course she's rather more intemperate in her earlier shock at Charlotte's acceptance of him than she is later, but I think her response to Charlotte's advice on how to catch a man - 'You make me laugh, Charlotte, but it is not sound' - sums up the author's attitude as well.
I still think, as I eloquently put it to C. after his mum had gone to bed: Jane Austen acknowledges that life sucks for women like Charlotte, but that doesn't really excuse doing something like marrying a man you can't have an ounce of respect for.
No opinions were changed, but a good time was had by all! Anyone disagreeing with me should feel free to jump in with why this is all rubbish.
* I asked for the copy to look up the remembered scenes, having been scarred by an occasion when I was studying P&P several years ago. A friend and I were having a long (also enjoyable) argument by email about Georgiana's saying that her brother could never be mistaken. Both of us had avoided watching the TV series (which we both had on video) for the whole academic year, to avoid confusion, and it still took about 3 emails on each side of discussion, before I went to check a minor detail of this scene and discovered no such thing was actually said in the book... Scary.
Anyway, the discussion at
steepholm's mother's somehow got to Charlotte's decision to marry Mr Collins, and he and his mother both said she was just pragmatic and not hopeful of better. I agreed with that, and that her choices were much more limited than those of Jane or Elizabeth, but felt that though her decision was treated sympathetically it was nonetheless meant to be seen as morally inadequate. I quoted too! And then found and read out the passages I'd remembered (fairly accurately, on this occasion, at least*). Steepholm's mother said the voice of Elizabeth couldn't be equated with that of the narrator/Jane Austen, which is also correct, of course. Rebuttal number whatever though, is that Elizabeth is wrong in her judgments, but is not actually morally incorrect: if Darcy had done any of the things she mistakenly believed him to have done, then he would have been a bad, bad man indeed. The snobbery of Bingley's sisters is wrong. And when the author uses her favourite free indirect speech to show Elizabeth, feeling betrayed by Charlotte, turning even more to Jane , who is never anything but good, the reader is to see that judgment to be correct. Of course she's rather more intemperate in her earlier shock at Charlotte's acceptance of him than she is later, but I think her response to Charlotte's advice on how to catch a man - 'You make me laugh, Charlotte, but it is not sound' - sums up the author's attitude as well. I still think, as I eloquently put it to C. after his mum had gone to bed: Jane Austen acknowledges that life sucks for women like Charlotte, but that doesn't really excuse doing something like marrying a man you can't have an ounce of respect for.
No opinions were changed, but a good time was had by all! Anyone disagreeing with me should feel free to jump in with why this is all rubbish.
* I asked for the copy to look up the remembered scenes, having been scarred by an occasion when I was studying P&P several years ago. A friend and I were having a long (also enjoyable) argument by email about Georgiana's saying that her brother could never be mistaken. Both of us had avoided watching the TV series (which we both had on video) for the whole academic year, to avoid confusion, and it still took about 3 emails on each side of discussion, before I went to check a minor detail of this scene and discovered no such thing was actually said in the book... Scary.
