lady_schrapnell (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
lady_schrapnell) wrote2009-02-01 02:33 pm
lady_schrapnell) wrote2009-02-01 02:33 pm
Genre Me-me!
I finished Frances Hardinge's Gullstruck Island yesterday and will write it up properly very soon, but combination of bad night and headache have left me unable to say more about it atm than READ IT. (With hearty apologies to those outside the UK and Ireland who might not be able to do so yet...)
In the meantime, came across this genre book meme in![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ladyofastolat 's post the other day and thought it was fun for a couple of reasons, not least the inclusion of greater-than-usual number of children's books. (For this type of list.) Here's the original (much easier to use without the italics or bolds or whatever) - how new is this! Addition of not-to-be-missed books encouraged, but philmophlegm has asked that they go after the original 100. (I had a terrible time deciding between books to add, and can't begin to imagine drawing up a list of 100.)
Genre fiction book meme -
1) Look at the list, copy and paste it into your own journal.
2) Mark those you have read however you want.
3) Feel free to tell your friends what you thought of them.
I've done bold for read, underlined for read part of (book OR series) and babbled about most of the pitiful few books I've read.
In no particular order:
1. The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien - I wish *someone* could tell me who gave these to me as a child/teen, but nobody seems to know, and I didn't buy the books I had myself. Anyway, read while in secondary school, again in grad school, and then when the films came out. Which makes me mad to the LOTR haters and a real light-weight to the true fans, but whatever. I still love them.
2. The Hobbit, J.R.R. Tolkien
3. The Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien - See? Light-weight.
4. Foundation series, Isaac Asimov
5. Robot series, Isaac Asimov
6. Dune, Frank Herbert - read this ages ago, and I think read a couple of the sequels, but no desire to revisit to see what I think of them now.
7. Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein
8. Earthsea series, Ursula le Guin - Read the original trilogy as a child, in the lovely old Penguin editions, read Tehanu as an adult, thank merciful heavens, and read the The Other Wind when it came out. I think there's more now, but haven't got to it, though I liked The Other Wind.
9. Neuromancer, William Gibson
10. Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury
11. The Day of the Triffids, John Wyndham [shhh..]
12. A Book of the New Sun series, Gene Wolfe
13. Discworld series, Terry Pratchett - I'm not as huge a fan as most everyone I know, but have read quite a number, in an entirely random way.
14. Sandman series, Neil Gaiman - I know I should, but can't bring myself to try again after really feeling these were not my cup of tea in any way.
15. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams
16. Dragonriders of Pern series, Anne McAffery - Read, and loved, some of the earlier books in the series (the children's) and then some of the -- others, but eventually stopped. I really must try the YA ones again sometime.
17. Interview with the Vampire series, Anne Rice
18. The Shining, Stephen King
19. The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula le Guin - found this to be more very good than loved it, but it was very good!
20. The Chronicles of Amber, Roger Zelazny - read at least one of these when someone said that DWJ families were like the family in this, but had too hard a time getting hold of them and gradually forgot to keep trying. I think I liked the one or two I read though.
21. 2001: A Space Odyssey, Arthur C. Clarke
22. Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C. Clarke
23. Ringworld, Larry Niven
24. Elric of Melnibone series, Michael Moorcock
25. The Dying Earth series, Jack Vance
26. Lyonesse series, Jack Vance - Don't *think* I read any of these, but I do remember something about somebody saying they were wonderful...
27. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever, Stephen Donaldson
28. A Song of Ice and Fire series, George R.R. Martin - I really should, shouldn't I? Just forget getting anything else done and read them...
29. The Worm Ourobouros, E.R. Eddison
30. Conan series, Robert E. Howard
31. Lankhmar series, Fritz Leiber
32. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Philip K. Dick - Probably never would have read it if it hadn't been for the OU course!
33. The Time Machine, H.G. Wells
34. The Invisible Man, H.G. Wells
35. The War of the Worlds, H.G. Wells
36. Eon, Greg Bear
37. Book of the First Law series, Joe Abercrombie
38. Miss Marple stories, Agatha Christie - Never systematic about reading them, so no idea what proportion of them I've read.
39. Hercule Poirot stories, Agatha Christie - ditto.
40. Lord Peter Wimsey stories, Dorothy L. Sayers - Oh yes, read these. (Might have missed one or two, but not the Harriet Vane ones).
41. The Maltese Falcon, Dashiell Hammett
42. The Thirty-Nine Steps, John Buchan
43. Sherlock Holmes stories, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle - Don't seem to have read them at the "right" time, and never read much at all.
44. Cthulhu Mythos, H.P. Lovecraft
45. Inspector Wexford stories, Ruth Rendell (I think I have... though couldn't say which ones or what they were about, precisely.)
46. Adam Dalgliesh stories, P.D. James (More definite about these, and have read more.)
47. Philip Marlowe stories, Raymond Chandler
48. The Godfather, Mario Puzo
49. The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth
50. The Fourth Protocol, Frederick Forsyth
51. Smiley series, John le Carre
52. Gentleman Bastard series, Scott Lynch
53. The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson
54. Watchmen series, Alan Moore
55. Maus, Art Spiegelman
56. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Alan Miller
57. Persepolis, Marjane Satrapi - Finally read recently.
58. Harry Potter series, J.K. Rowling - Read the first (to one, other or both daughter(s)) when it came out, was reading the second to Younger Daugher when she asked me to stop, reread second and read third and fourth while in bed with 'flu, and felt I'd done my duty by them for the time being.
59. Chrestomanci series, Diana Wynne-Jones - Picked up The Lives of Christopher Chant in Dun Laoghaire library in about 1995 - maybe '96 - and went on to read all the others, of course. This is truly the book I can easily pinpoint as MOST life-changing of my whole life. (In terms of events, rather than personality-shaping.)
60. Ryhope Wood series, Robert Holdstock - Read Mythago Wood after Catherine Fisher recommended it - would have to be paid a fair amount to try any more in the series.
61. Wilt series, Tom Sharpe - Or maybe not. Doesn't seem to have left a deep impression either way.
62. Riftwar Cycle, Raymond E. Feist
63. Temeraire series, Naomi Novik - Read the first, loved it. Found the intensity of liking wore off fairly quickly, for no good reason. Everyone else loves them all.
64. Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis - I'm a fan. Read them as a child, and have been jealous ever since reading Francis Spufford's The Child That Books Built of his amazingly clear memory of his childhood reading.
65. His Dark Materials series, Phillip Pullman - Bought the first when it came out for Becca (Oh yes - the hardcover first of the first! I'm still trying to figure out how it could be classified as belonging to 'the family' instead of her.) and read it to her. Read the second to her as well, but found that Pullman's personality (including what he said about these books, about the Narnia books, and how he behaved on lists and to RL people) got in the way too much and bailed on the third, instead relying on Becca's reading.
66. Dragonlance series, Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman
67. Twilight saga, Stephanie Meyer - Read Twilight before there was a lot of fuss and didn't think much of it. Would rather do many things - some of them quite painful - than read the rest of the saga.
68. The Night's Dawn trilogy, Peter F. Hamilton
69. Artemis Fowl series, Eoin Colfer - Read the first, and enjoyed it in a mild sort of way. I have heard that you need to keep reading to appreciate them at their best, and might read more sometime. One of OURS, so I ought to. Interesting to see this here though - wouldn't have thought it was that highly-regarded.
70. Honor Harrington series, David Weber - Keep meaning to read them.
71. Hannibal Lecter series, Thomas Harris
72. The Dark Tower series, Stephen King
73. It, Stephen King
74. The Rats series, James Herbert
75. Dirk Gently series, Douglas Adams
76. Jeeves and Wooster stories, P.G. Wodehouse - Love them, and should do systemmatic reading sometime.
77. The da Vinci Code, Dan Brown - Ha - I was saved bygeneralblossom before *everybody* was talking about this, one way or other.
78. The Culture Series, Iain M. Banks
79. The Duncton series, William Horwood
80. The Illuminatus! trilogy, Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
81. The Aberystwyth series, Malcom Pryce
82. Morse stories, Colin Dexter - Read quite a few, seen quite a few.
83. Navajo Tribal Police stories, Tony Hillerman - I'd read all that were written when I left the States, and was looking out for more for a few years after - thought they were wonderful.
84. The Ipcress File, Len Deighton
85. Enigma, Robert Harris
86. Fatherland, Robert Harris
87. The Constant Gardener, John le Carre
88. The House of Cards trilogy, Michael Dobbs
89. The Dark is Rising saga, Susan Cooper - How could I be withsteepholm and not have read them? Honestly not sure when I first read, but apparently read them to Becca. And did a very interesting reread after reading Four British Fantasists - an experience I'd recommend to everyone! And yes, I'm with the rest of the fans in hating That Part of the end, but love them still....
90. Psychotechnic League and Polesotechnic League series, Poul Anderson
91. Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton
92. Star Wars: Thrawn trilogy, Timothy Zahn
93. Ender's Game series, Orson Scott Card - Read Ender's Game, which was very good, but -- it might be one of those books which you almost need to read first as a teen. I have problems with Card's ideology and think it's too late to appreciate his writing as it should be appreciated.
94. Gormenghast series, Meryvn Peake
95. Miles Vorkosigan saga, Lois McMaster Bujold - Oh yes! Started with Memory, which is terrible [ETA - which is a terrible PLACE to START, I meant to say], but didn't prevent my becoming a fan.
96. The Once and Future King, T.H. White - This one I can remember reading for the first time as a child. My grandfather was a fan, and I think he may have given it to me.
97. Fighting Fantasy books, Ian Livingston & Steve Jackson
98. The Stainless Steel Rat series, Harry Harrison - Read a few and enjoyed them.
99. The Lensman series, E.E. 'Doc' Smith
100. The Cadfael stories, Ellis Peters - Read quite a number of them in my more mystery-heavy reading days, and always enjoyed them.
101. Riddle-master trilogy, Patricia A. McKillip - This was my introduction to McKillip, read back in grad school, when I didn't get much reading time, and so still has a sort of numinous niche in my brain, though reading to Becca was kind of a failure (she loved other books by McKillip, though that gorgeous prose is *always* very hard to read aloud!).
102. The Wolves Chronicles (James III series), Joan Aiken - Read the ones that were out when I was a child, and read The Wolves of Willoughby Chase to Becca when she brought home a scary book from school which I didn't think looked very good. Told her if she wanted scary, I'd read her great scary. I think she was 6 at the time, and we collected the others as we could find them, and as new ones were published (when we came to Ireland on visits and then moved back here). Got to read them all again to Younger Daugher, who also loved them deeply. It may not be the strongest of the books, but I'll always be grateful that Aiken knew she needed to finish the series, and brought it to a satisfying conclusion just before dying.
103. The Perilous Gard, Elizabeth Marie Pope. Got this from the Scholastic catalogue when Bec and Y.D. were in school in Tuscon - I read it myself first and held off for a bit before reading to Becca. It went on to become the most frequently read-aloud book (chapter books, this is) in this household, and the original copy was literally read to pieces. It's also the book which drew me out of lurking on the Diana Wynne Jones list back in 1999. (Okay, I hadn't been lurking for long, but still.) I think it has some of the best dialogue ever.
The last three are mine - and I considered quite a few others, in my usual indecisive way. Top contenders included Sherwood Smith's Crown and Court Duet - both girls and I love them and they're still going strong many years after initial publication; Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain - if only for the sake of gettingsteepholm more likely to do this meme; and the Finn Family Moomintroll books - because so many of them are just perfect. But I already had to cut out To Say Nothing of the Dog! Not necessarily seminal Connie Willis, but, but... My username! The joy of the book! The awards she's won! Not easy...
In the meantime, came across this genre book meme in
ladyofastolat 's post the other day and thought it was fun for a couple of reasons, not least the inclusion of greater-than-usual number of children's books. (For this type of list.) Here's the original (much easier to use without the italics or bolds or whatever) - how new is this! Addition of not-to-be-missed books encouraged, but philmophlegm has asked that they go after the original 100. (I had a terrible time deciding between books to add, and can't begin to imagine drawing up a list of 100.)Genre fiction book meme -
1) Look at the list, copy and paste it into your own journal.
2) Mark those you have read however you want.
3) Feel free to tell your friends what you thought of them.
I've done bold for read, underlined for read part of (book OR series) and babbled about most of the pitiful few books I've read.
In no particular order:
1. The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien - I wish *someone* could tell me who gave these to me as a child/teen, but nobody seems to know, and I didn't buy the books I had myself. Anyway, read while in secondary school, again in grad school, and then when the films came out. Which makes me mad to the LOTR haters and a real light-weight to the true fans, but whatever. I still love them.
2. The Hobbit, J.R.R. Tolkien
3. The Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien - See? Light-weight.
4. Foundation series, Isaac Asimov
5. Robot series, Isaac Asimov
6. Dune, Frank Herbert - read this ages ago, and I think read a couple of the sequels, but no desire to revisit to see what I think of them now.
7. Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein
8. Earthsea series, Ursula le Guin - Read the original trilogy as a child, in the lovely old Penguin editions, read Tehanu as an adult, thank merciful heavens, and read the The Other Wind when it came out. I think there's more now, but haven't got to it, though I liked The Other Wind.
9. Neuromancer, William Gibson
10. Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury
11. The Day of the Triffids, John Wyndham [shhh..]
12. A Book of the New Sun series, Gene Wolfe
13. Discworld series, Terry Pratchett - I'm not as huge a fan as most everyone I know, but have read quite a number, in an entirely random way.
14. Sandman series, Neil Gaiman - I know I should, but can't bring myself to try again after really feeling these were not my cup of tea in any way.
15. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams
16. Dragonriders of Pern series, Anne McAffery - Read, and loved, some of the earlier books in the series (the children's) and then some of the -- others, but eventually stopped. I really must try the YA ones again sometime.
17. Interview with the Vampire series, Anne Rice
18. The Shining, Stephen King
19. The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula le Guin - found this to be more very good than loved it, but it was very good!
20. The Chronicles of Amber, Roger Zelazny - read at least one of these when someone said that DWJ families were like the family in this, but had too hard a time getting hold of them and gradually forgot to keep trying. I think I liked the one or two I read though.
21. 2001: A Space Odyssey, Arthur C. Clarke
22. Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C. Clarke
23. Ringworld, Larry Niven
24. Elric of Melnibone series, Michael Moorcock
25. The Dying Earth series, Jack Vance
26. Lyonesse series, Jack Vance - Don't *think* I read any of these, but I do remember something about somebody saying they were wonderful...
27. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever, Stephen Donaldson
28. A Song of Ice and Fire series, George R.R. Martin - I really should, shouldn't I? Just forget getting anything else done and read them...
29. The Worm Ourobouros, E.R. Eddison
30. Conan series, Robert E. Howard
31. Lankhmar series, Fritz Leiber
32. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Philip K. Dick - Probably never would have read it if it hadn't been for the OU course!
33. The Time Machine, H.G. Wells
34. The Invisible Man, H.G. Wells
35. The War of the Worlds, H.G. Wells
36. Eon, Greg Bear
37. Book of the First Law series, Joe Abercrombie
38. Miss Marple stories, Agatha Christie - Never systematic about reading them, so no idea what proportion of them I've read.
39. Hercule Poirot stories, Agatha Christie - ditto.
40. Lord Peter Wimsey stories, Dorothy L. Sayers - Oh yes, read these. (Might have missed one or two, but not the Harriet Vane ones).
41. The Maltese Falcon, Dashiell Hammett
42. The Thirty-Nine Steps, John Buchan
43. Sherlock Holmes stories, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle - Don't seem to have read them at the "right" time, and never read much at all.
44. Cthulhu Mythos, H.P. Lovecraft
45. Inspector Wexford stories, Ruth Rendell (I think I have... though couldn't say which ones or what they were about, precisely.)
46. Adam Dalgliesh stories, P.D. James (More definite about these, and have read more.)
47. Philip Marlowe stories, Raymond Chandler
48. The Godfather, Mario Puzo
49. The Day of the Jackal, Frederick Forsyth
50. The Fourth Protocol, Frederick Forsyth
51. Smiley series, John le Carre
52. Gentleman Bastard series, Scott Lynch
53. The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson
54. Watchmen series, Alan Moore
55. Maus, Art Spiegelman
56. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Alan Miller
57. Persepolis, Marjane Satrapi - Finally read recently.
58. Harry Potter series, J.K. Rowling - Read the first (to one, other or both daughter(s)) when it came out, was reading the second to Younger Daugher when she asked me to stop, reread second and read third and fourth while in bed with 'flu, and felt I'd done my duty by them for the time being.
59. Chrestomanci series, Diana Wynne-Jones - Picked up The Lives of Christopher Chant in Dun Laoghaire library in about 1995 - maybe '96 - and went on to read all the others, of course. This is truly the book I can easily pinpoint as MOST life-changing of my whole life. (In terms of events, rather than personality-shaping.)
60. Ryhope Wood series, Robert Holdstock - Read Mythago Wood after Catherine Fisher recommended it - would have to be paid a fair amount to try any more in the series.
61. Wilt series, Tom Sharpe - Or maybe not. Doesn't seem to have left a deep impression either way.
62. Riftwar Cycle, Raymond E. Feist
63. Temeraire series, Naomi Novik - Read the first, loved it. Found the intensity of liking wore off fairly quickly, for no good reason. Everyone else loves them all.
64. Chronicles of Narnia, C.S. Lewis - I'm a fan. Read them as a child, and have been jealous ever since reading Francis Spufford's The Child That Books Built of his amazingly clear memory of his childhood reading.
65. His Dark Materials series, Phillip Pullman - Bought the first when it came out for Becca (Oh yes - the hardcover first of the first! I'm still trying to figure out how it could be classified as belonging to 'the family' instead of her.) and read it to her. Read the second to her as well, but found that Pullman's personality (including what he said about these books, about the Narnia books, and how he behaved on lists and to RL people) got in the way too much and bailed on the third, instead relying on Becca's reading.
66. Dragonlance series, Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman
67. Twilight saga, Stephanie Meyer - Read Twilight before there was a lot of fuss and didn't think much of it. Would rather do many things - some of them quite painful - than read the rest of the saga.
68. The Night's Dawn trilogy, Peter F. Hamilton
69. Artemis Fowl series, Eoin Colfer - Read the first, and enjoyed it in a mild sort of way. I have heard that you need to keep reading to appreciate them at their best, and might read more sometime. One of OURS, so I ought to. Interesting to see this here though - wouldn't have thought it was that highly-regarded.
70. Honor Harrington series, David Weber - Keep meaning to read them.
71. Hannibal Lecter series, Thomas Harris
72. The Dark Tower series, Stephen King
73. It, Stephen King
74. The Rats series, James Herbert
75. Dirk Gently series, Douglas Adams
76. Jeeves and Wooster stories, P.G. Wodehouse - Love them, and should do systemmatic reading sometime.
77. The da Vinci Code, Dan Brown - Ha - I was saved by
generalblossom before *everybody* was talking about this, one way or other. 78. The Culture Series, Iain M. Banks
79. The Duncton series, William Horwood
80. The Illuminatus! trilogy, Robert Shea & Robert Anton Wilson
81. The Aberystwyth series, Malcom Pryce
82. Morse stories, Colin Dexter - Read quite a few, seen quite a few.
83. Navajo Tribal Police stories, Tony Hillerman - I'd read all that were written when I left the States, and was looking out for more for a few years after - thought they were wonderful.
84. The Ipcress File, Len Deighton
85. Enigma, Robert Harris
86. Fatherland, Robert Harris
87. The Constant Gardener, John le Carre
88. The House of Cards trilogy, Michael Dobbs
89. The Dark is Rising saga, Susan Cooper - How could I be with
steepholm and not have read them? Honestly not sure when I first read, but apparently read them to Becca. And did a very interesting reread after reading Four British Fantasists - an experience I'd recommend to everyone! And yes, I'm with the rest of the fans in hating That Part of the end, but love them still....90. Psychotechnic League and Polesotechnic League series, Poul Anderson
91. Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton
92. Star Wars: Thrawn trilogy, Timothy Zahn
93. Ender's Game series, Orson Scott Card - Read Ender's Game, which was very good, but -- it might be one of those books which you almost need to read first as a teen. I have problems with Card's ideology and think it's too late to appreciate his writing as it should be appreciated.
94. Gormenghast series, Meryvn Peake
95. Miles Vorkosigan saga, Lois McMaster Bujold - Oh yes! Started with Memory, which is terrible [ETA - which is a terrible PLACE to START, I meant to say], but didn't prevent my becoming a fan.
96. The Once and Future King, T.H. White - This one I can remember reading for the first time as a child. My grandfather was a fan, and I think he may have given it to me.
97. Fighting Fantasy books, Ian Livingston & Steve Jackson
98. The Stainless Steel Rat series, Harry Harrison - Read a few and enjoyed them.
99. The Lensman series, E.E. 'Doc' Smith
100. The Cadfael stories, Ellis Peters - Read quite a number of them in my more mystery-heavy reading days, and always enjoyed them.
101. Riddle-master trilogy, Patricia A. McKillip - This was my introduction to McKillip, read back in grad school, when I didn't get much reading time, and so still has a sort of numinous niche in my brain, though reading to Becca was kind of a failure (she loved other books by McKillip, though that gorgeous prose is *always* very hard to read aloud!).
102. The Wolves Chronicles (James III series), Joan Aiken - Read the ones that were out when I was a child, and read The Wolves of Willoughby Chase to Becca when she brought home a scary book from school which I didn't think looked very good. Told her if she wanted scary, I'd read her great scary. I think she was 6 at the time, and we collected the others as we could find them, and as new ones were published (when we came to Ireland on visits and then moved back here). Got to read them all again to Younger Daugher, who also loved them deeply. It may not be the strongest of the books, but I'll always be grateful that Aiken knew she needed to finish the series, and brought it to a satisfying conclusion just before dying.
103. The Perilous Gard, Elizabeth Marie Pope. Got this from the Scholastic catalogue when Bec and Y.D. were in school in Tuscon - I read it myself first and held off for a bit before reading to Becca. It went on to become the most frequently read-aloud book (chapter books, this is) in this household, and the original copy was literally read to pieces. It's also the book which drew me out of lurking on the Diana Wynne Jones list back in 1999. (Okay, I hadn't been lurking for long, but still.) I think it has some of the best dialogue ever.
The last three are mine - and I considered quite a few others, in my usual indecisive way. Top contenders included Sherwood Smith's Crown and Court Duet - both girls and I love them and they're still going strong many years after initial publication; Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain - if only for the sake of getting
steepholm more likely to do this meme; and the Finn Family Moomintroll books - because so many of them are just perfect. But I already had to cut out To Say Nothing of the Dog! Not necessarily seminal Connie Willis, but, but... My username! The joy of the book! The awards she's won! Not easy...
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Looking forward to reading yours!
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Although I admit to only having read them once, nearly ten years ago, so maybe I'd be less irritated by them if I read them again now?
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I think the missing Robin McKinley-loving gene is even rarer than the Sandman worshiping one in this world but as the list didn't include her it remained hidden this time!
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Really? If this stuff is genetic, then clearly we are long-lost relatives. . . .
Now I just have to ask, have you ever watched Firefly? If so, what did you think of it?
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Oh dear - I have too few relatives to happily risk a just-rediscovered ones, but I loved Firefly. Couldn't get into the first part of the pilot at all, but then lapped up the rest.
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Got me rather idly wondering why historical fiction doesn't seem to count as genre...
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I like that one best of the Folletts (for me, they successively get sloppier and sloppier, but that one and the right right after were tight and snappy pacing)